Re: memories.e18
Karl-Heinz Zeller ("ohfas2::zeller"@OHF015.HF.OP.DLR.DE)
Wed, 31 Jan 1996 20:38:14 MEZ
First, let me introduce myself:
I was born in Germany a half year after the WWII ended. My whole family
survived the WWII physically unvictimized. My father was a bricklayer
working at a group building up ammunition factories during the war.
He had to to travel 40 miles (one way) by bicycle to visit my mother
every second sunday. One of my brothers survived the WWII only,
because he escaped from the german army 3 weeks before the war ended.
He was 16 years old at this time.
I have a very good remembrance about the 'Marshal Plan': we had to
share our house with one of the U.S. soldiers. We shared also the
breakfast and the dinner. Sometimes - about one times per week - my
sister and I get a little choclate or icecream from the soldier.
You should know, that we had most times nothing else than a soup
made from the skin of potatoes to eat.
Who are the winners and who are the loosers of a war ? There are
two definitions. First let us compare post-wartime against
continuous peacetime.
The only winners in this matter are a fiew managers of arms factories.
All others, no matter from which country they are, are loosers. The
U.S. soldier was a looser too: he was far away from his own family
and hold off from his profession for several years. Others have
lost her life or her health by the war and there is no significant
difference in winner- or looser-countries.
The other definition is the comparison of the winning party. Let us
suppose that Hitler and his gang has won the WWII. In this case I
probably had to live like an inhabitant of north-corea: as a
prisoner of the government. Inside a concentration camp, if I was
so unlucky to get observed in listening to a foreign radio station,
outside a concentration camp otherwise. Following this definition,
I am a member of the winners of the WWII - or is there any other
opinion ?
Second, let me comment some contributions of other members
(most citations are strong reduced):
>From: Manny Karbelnig <aj667@LAFN.ORG>
>Don: Read your reply and felt you were overly critical. After WW1, our
>nation lacked the foresight to look into the history books. The German
>people are the German people, continue to be war-like, believe they are
>"oberleute", or in English, a superior people. If you stop to think of
>it, the Marshall Plan was ingenius in rehabilitating Europe, but the
>help they gave the Germans was counter-productive, allowing them to
>rebuild their war machine and prepare for the next conflict. Consider and
>ask yourself, where did Hassam Hussein get the poison gas?? Who continuies
>to ferment conflict in the Middle East?? After all, you can't change the
>stripes on a Zebra, or take War-Making out of the German-Nazi psyche.
>After WWII we made two serious mistakes. Why test Atomic weapons in the
>American desert, why have the Russians test in Siberia, the French in
>the lovely Pacific Islands. There is ideal atomic testing ground in
>Berlin, Frankfort, Stuttgard, Munich, etc.
>The second, probably fatal mistake was allowing the Germans-Nazis to
>unite. The only good thing the Russians ever did was to keep the Germans-
>Nazis under their thumb.
>Alas, as one historian wrote recently "The only thing mankind ever learned
>from history is that mankind has NEVER learned from history".
>I hope my children and grandchildren are spared in the next conflict. I
>spent 46 months in WWII, most of it in combat, and I hope my family, and
>other American families, are spared this horror.
>Think it over, my friend, and learn who is your enemy.
I suspect, that this extreme opinion is coming from one suffering
from PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder). This disease is usually
generated by the experience of extreme, horror-like victimization of
the soul and a typical disease of veterans. This is the site to
write about your horrible experiences, Manny. We all want to learn
from the history and want to make every prevention against war for
the future.
Germanys army plays a strictly defensive role inside the NATO. Our
army is specialized for mine sweeping and logistical support. We have
neither middle or long range missiles nor heavy long range bombers.
There are no tendencies to change this.
Hitler wrote a book about his race philosophy. He declared a race, the
Aryans, to be 'superior peoples'. Aryans are typical large, slender,
blond haired and have blue eyes. Beside of Sweden and Norway, Aryans are
frequent in Germany. However, Hitler himself was not an Aryan.
Within his gang, Aryans was rare. My brothers and myself are Aryans.
When my 16 year old brother was lying down in the mud with the face
down during the combat, armed with a rifle nearby out of order
and 5 shots of ammunition against tanks and combat aircrafts,
he recognised, that he was treated like
gunfood and not like 'superior people' by Hitler and his gang.
He escaped from the army. We don't feel like superior people and
we don't believe, that Hitler himself believes, what he wrote.
Nevertheless, declaring the Aryans as superior people was one of
the crime acts of Hitler and his gang. On my humble opinion,
this was done as a part of the preparation for war.
We have about 50 (!!) armed conflicts per year around the world.
Several terrible massacres became known every year. Read your newspaper
about the backgrounds of these massacres: there are two mean
reasons. One is extreme hate coming from earlier terrible slaughters.
The other reason is, that the one are thinking that they are
superior people compared with the others.
If mankind want to learn from history - and the mankind must learn
if we all want to survive - we must recognize that there is no
significant difference between humans of different color of the skin,
humans of different sex, humans of different confession,
humans with different profession, or humans
born or living at different sides of a natural or man made landmark.
Furthermore we must learn, that the typical Italian is
suffering from and not a member of the Mafia gang, that the
typical Columbian is suffering from and not a member of the
drug dealers and that the typical German is suffering from
and not a member of the Nazi gang.
>to Mr. Zvonko Springer's fine piece of history. It puts the Second World
>War into perspective. Every sentence is packed with meaning and could be
>used as a basis for furthur investigation. For example, he speaks of
>"circumstances" in the 1920s and 1930s. You might discover that one
>of the cirmcunstances was excessive reparations demanded of a defeated
>and broken people after the First World War. Mr. Springer speaks
>of lack of "farsightedness." I have read that certain Western
>"leaders" thought they might be able to "use" Hitler to help restore
>order in Germany, where living and economic conditions were awful.
>Is it surprising that such lack of farsightedness provided an
>ideal opportunity for someone who promised people renewed self-respect?
>As we see, the result was the incredible slaughter of millions.
>
In general I agree. However, it is very easy to recognize this lack
of farsightedness in looking back. Could the politicians really expect
such a monster as Hitler was as counterpart ?
From: Tom Holloway <xuegx@CSV.WARWICK.AC.UK>
>... is completely unacceptable. Manny - when I first
>suggested that you might join the MEMORIES Panel of
>Elders, I made it plain that the project was about the
>difficulties faced by civilians of *ALL* nations in the
>face of the horrors of World War Two. Your experience
>in the 'displaced persons' camp after WW2 must have given
>you direct knowledge of such things.
>... are provocotive and divisive and quite outside the
>spirit of this list. I am aware that you were intimately
>involved with the combat between the Allies (USA, England,
>many countries of the World) and the Axis (Germany, Japan,
>Italy). I recognise the problems. But we will not heal
>our world and make it ready for the 21st Century by such
>inflammatory statements.
On my humble opinion, we should read Manny's extreme opinion
and make thoughts about, what is the cause for this opinion.
He must have had very worse experiences during the WWII. And if we
really want to learn from our history in order to make EARLY
preventions against reoccurencies, we should read carefully,
what Manny has to tell us about his experiencies.
I live nearby the 'concentration camp memorial site' at Dachau.
I visited this site several times, there are many original
documents, newspaper articles and photographs from the time
when Germany was under the Nazi government. There are many
evidencies of proof and testimonies from such uncredible terrible
events. I asked my father again and again, but I still can not
understand, how all this terrible events could happen.
An example: to kill one intentionally without a court decision
of course was forbidden, was a first degree murder. The
law was very strong - stealing a bread
could make one to become a prisoner of a concentration camp.
And there was medical experiments with the order written down,
that the test person has NOT to survive. This was a first degree
murder. Where was the attorneys and the courts to prevent this
murders? Do they all and ever look away ?
From: Manny Karbelnig <aj667@LAFN.ORG>
>Tom: Sorry to be contrite, but, after a recent visit to Germany, I
>am more-than-ever convinced of my position. On a former visit, some
>years ago, I was on a Rhine river cruise, and, one evening, when the
>ship was tied up, we took a long walk thru one of the cities. As you
>know, I speak and read the German language. Walking down the street, I
>saw the sign,"Juden raus"- meaning 'Jews get out'. My blessed mother
> always taught me to "forgive and forget"- but the German-Nazis are
>still with us, and like cockroaches, persist and thrive on the suffering
>of others.Sad, but true. Still, hope springs eternal, and your kindness
>and gentleness does not protect us, as I hope it will. Still, I know
>these people (I use the term generically), and dread what they will
>certainly do in the future. Keep hoping, it's a wonderful quality.
How many other smutty jokes you have seen during your walk, Manny ?
Is your country free from smudge paintings ?
From: Tom Holloway <xuegx@CSV.WARWICK.AC.UK>
>I would welcome *general* responses from the seven German
>schools and subscribers to this list. In the meantime I
>would prefer that Manny Karbelnig take our differences
>off-list and write one to one for a while.
On my humble opinion, Manny's contribution is a good example,
how terrible experiences during wartime may cause severe
and long standing psychological injuries. Manny should write
us more about his experiencies and less about his opinion.
From: Zvonko Springer <zzspri@COSY.SBG.AC.AT>
> It is true that the Marshall Plan was ingenius in rehabilitating
>Europe economy after the end of WWTwo. It saved the peoples of the
>Free Europe from all those horrible aftermathes which occured after
I agree. On my opinion, something like the Marshall Plan after the
WWI had let no chance for Hitler's gang to overcome the German
government and, therefore, may avoid the WWII.
From: MR EDWARD J BEHRENDT <MTCY26A@PRODIGY.COM>
>The rise of neo-nazism in Germany is increasing daily, not only against
>Jews, but against most foreigners including British and American
>citizens. In fact, over the last 3 years, more foreigners of all
>kinds rather than Jews, have been attacked, beaten and even killed.
>Certainly there are many many decent Germans around who are trying to
>prevent this from happening again and the neo-nazis so far are still in
>the minority, but they exist and are indeed growing like cockroaches.
On my opinion, the neo-nazism in Germany is still at a very low level.
Remember that the demonstration at munich FOR fellowship with all
foreigners was the largest, which has Germany ever seen. However,
I must admit that I am concerned about the fast rising of the
former nearby unknown neo-nazism. There is no danger of a new war,
but of an increasing terror level. The mean cause seems to be a lack
of perspective for the young people.
>If we follow the Croation Soldier's apparent suggestions, and ignore
>what is going on in Germany today, we will be doing the same thing we
>did prior to WW2. If we ignore it, it will not just go away. We found
>that out prior to WW2. All responsible and decent people, including
>Germans, must, I believe, do all we can to completely wipe out all
>forms of Nazism wherever it rears its ugly head. Hopefully not with
>bombs and guns, but in a strong and vocal solidarity, now, while it
>still can be done that way!
I agree. As earlier the better.
>to promptly throw him off the Memories List? No freedom of speech on
>this List? Censorship. That's how it started in Germany in the 30's,
>let's not do it again here please. Hopefully you won't censor this
>message either.
If we hate war, we must also hate any censorship. Censorship is a
member of each war. Each war is preceeded by a lack of communication.
We must learn to discuss even and just extreme positions, if we
want to learn how to prevent any war.
From: PETE KLAMMER <PKLAMMER@CASTLE.CUDENVER.EDU>
>If I may suggest some lemonade to be made from these lemons: one of the
>effects of war on civilians (and combatants) is to make them bitter and
>prejudiced, perhaps for the rest of their lives, to the point that they fail
>to see the possibilities for good around them, and continue to seek chances
>for revenge long after hostilities have ceased. You have a muckraker here,
>with a mind that has been poisoned by the injuries of warfare; and now he
>seeks to spread the poison and rouse a few like-minded malcontents to strike
>back at ``them'' -- whoever ``they'' happen to be today. He makes a fine
Excuse me, if I make some comments off topic. The victimization of the soul,
which Pete describes, is well known from the medical literature and called
PTSD (see at the beginning of this letter). It is a severe illness. The
most of the victims suffer more than one who have a limb or a leg lost!
From: Karl Sarnow <karl@DADOKA.H.NI.SCHULE.DE>
>Becoming a NAZI is simple: just hate. You do not have to learn a specific
>language, you do not need a special uniform, you do not need to become a
>member of a special nation.
>Avoiding NAZISM is easy as well: do NOT hate. Believe me: it is that simple.
On my humble opinion, hate is the mean attribute of a NAZI, but not the
only one. Another one is believing to be superior. My rule:
All humans are of the same quality, give all humans the same rights,
treat all humans as equal, no matter if black or white, if male or
female, if inhabitant or foreigner, if thumb or handicapped !
Karl-Heinz Zeller
________________________________
| Karl-Heinz Zeller |
| German Aerospace Research |
| Establishment (DLR) |
| Oberpfaffenhofen |
| D-82234 Wessling |
| GERMANY |
| FAX: (+49/0) 8153 28 1135 |
/| Phone: (+49/0) 8153 28 2393 |\
/ | E-Mail: KH.Zeller@dlr.de | \
_( (|________________________________|) )_
(((\ \) ( \ / ) (/ /)))
\\\\ \_/ / \ \_/ ////
\ / \ /
\ _/ \_ /